Christian Murder, Inc.

There are all kinds of right-wing knuckle-draggers I can’t for the life of me fathom, but the anti-choice crowd is definitely the lowest. What the fuck is wrong with these people? Claiming that Jesus declared life begins at conception (he didn’t), they humiliate women making very hard choices, harass doctors performing desperately needed services, legislate clinics almost out of existence, and occasionally, assassinate a person many consider a hero.

Dr. George Tiller was an unlikely hero, a man who believed that women are intelligent enough to make their own decisions regarding procreation. His first axiom was “the woman’s body is smarter than the doctor.” He was widely admired in the reproductive health community. He terminated pregnancies for women in the most trying of circumstances. And yes, he performed controversial third term abortions. Not on a whim, as Bill O’Reilly was fond of asserting (how do you sleep, you paranoid scumbag?), but when it was found that the child might have a horrible existence – being born without a brain, for instance. Nonetheless, fundamentalist crazies took Tiller to court repeatedly and he was cleared of all charges every time.

Nobody is “pro-abortion.” Nobody looks forward to getting an abortion. It is an agonizing choice. But the fact is, women sometimes need abortions. (One in three women, if the numbers are right.) If abortions are criminalized, these women get illegal and dangerous abortions. Many die. Along with their sacred little fetuses.

Why is this so confusing for the pseudo-religious fucknuckles calling themselves Christians in this country? These people who would kill to save a fetus but would let a grown man starve to death right in front of them? (Didn’t that Jesus fella say something about the poor?) These people who claim to be apostles of the Prince of Peace and yet believe warfare can be justified because the president has a hunch?

Kill for Jesus. Go ahead. He loves it.

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82 Responses to “Christian Murder, Inc.”

  1. I agree with you about Tiller’s death, but you’re attempt to reason with conservative Christians is fundamentally misguided. For one, you sound like a fish out of water when you talk religion; if you’re going to convince someone, you need to be fluent in their language, you don’t sound fluent in Christianity (though you might be, I dunno).

    Secondly, right wingers don’t care about the compassionate parts of the Bible. It’s a lot easier and more conducive to personal pride to just endlessly harp about the evils of gay people.

    Lastly, your apparent assumption that Christianity is at heart a compassionate, good religion that has been hijacked by hoards of self-righteous sociopaths is dead off. For every beautiful psalm in the Bible, there’s an incitement to raid villages and slaughter every man woman and child therein. For every wise revelation, a superstitious ritual. For every sermon on the mount, a shrill screed about the end of the world.

    We’re talking here about a religion whose founder openly said that whoever wouldn’t worship him as God would be condemned to unending torture and that he would ensure that whoever was condemned like that would be made to grovel first.

  2. The sarcastic use of “their sacred little fetuses” reveals much about the author.

  3. […] Note: I recently left this as comment at a liberal blog criticizing pro-lifers for having unchristian moral priorities. This version is slightly edited […]

  4. cripsyduck Says:

    Aby, I agree with your assessment of Christianity writ large, though I would expand it to include ALL Biblical religions, that is, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All assert an illogical superiority, all are based on the Old Testament and all lead to bloodshed and bullshit. Now, I do think there’s something salvageable in all three, but it takes a pretty wise mind to assimilate the good stuff and filter out the dross. I can live with the “do unto others” stuff – the “kill me a son” stuff not so much. (By the way, I have a degree in religious studies, so WHATEVER.)

    TD – you couldn’t figure out where I was coming from until the fetuses bit? What do you guys read in church? Oh yeah….

  5. Jesus didn’t declare that life begins at conception, but medical science teaches that it does.

    Why is it humiliation to try and show someone that there is a different, better choice than to go have an operation that leaves you emotionally scarred, and a murderer? I think that’s compassion.

    Please do not lump Dr. Tiller’s murderer with pro-lifers. He’s obviously not. Real pro-lifers are anti-murder.

    It is, in most cases, so easy to not have a baby. Many people, judging by the number of IVF clinics, have a very hard time. If a baby is inconvenient to you right now, don’t have sex right now. In 95% of the abortions in this country, it’s for convenience. Medical necessity, the procedure shouldn’t be called abortion in the sense that we are trying to eradicate.
    Regarding the Bible, you don’t seem to realize that the society that the Jews came from was already barbaric, that God chose a group to grow and multiply and fend off the more barbaric. Come to the day of Jesus, who were the barbarians? The ones who nailed him to a cross. I wonder if you could give me a chapter and verse where a shrill screed about the end of the world. I’m very familiar with the Word of God, and that’s just not in there. And where does it say that whoever won’t worship God would be condemned to torture and made to grovel? It just doesn’t exist.

    Your knowledge of religion leaves plenty to be desired. Before you criticize, you should learn what Christianity is all about. Christians know that they are all too human. We don’t say that we’re so good and others are so bad. We know that we’re all fallen, all sinners. Jesus showed us how to be better. Not perfect, better. That still means we do wrong at times. The point of religion and faith is for us to do wrong less often, and to be considerate of other people. But we still fail.

    • cripsyduck Says:

      And yet, you’re a self-righteous proponent of an ancient science-fiction vision you call the “word of God.” And yet, you think you know something because a TV preacher tells you so. And yet, you’ve never learned humility.

      You speak of the word of Christ but you’ve digested none of it. The truths inherent in the Bible (those there are) are all common sense and universally acknowledged. Everything else is just mumbo jumbo. Jews aren’t better than everyone else, humans aren’t born flawed. Jesus wasn’t perfect.

      If you can reach spiritual solace and be a better person from reading the (supposed) words of Christ, then I’m all for it. But if you’re going around forcing your twisted interpretation of those principles on others, then you’re just a jerk. And I doubt your savior would appreciate it.

      • I don’t listen to TV Evangelists. I do know humility and keep practicing it. It’s a lifelong journey. Regarding digesting the Bible, where does anyone say that Jews or anyone else is better than anyone else??? Jesus was God, so yes, he was perfect. If you knew the Bible, and believed any of it you’d know that.

        As for ‘forcing’ anything on anyone else, wrong. But we do have a duty to tell it like it is. To do any less is a sin in and of itself. We do not judge the people, at least we aren’t supposed to, like you do, but we can call a sin a sin, a lie a lie. We don’t hate the sinner, because all of us are in the same boat, but tell me this: If you see someone getting ready to step in front of a moving car, would you take any action to stop him? By proclaiming the sins being done, we are doing exactly the same thing.

        God bless you.

  6. Sure, they assert an illogical superiority. Religion makes them feel secure in an insecure world in which mortality awaits for all. Religion gives them a sense of control when ultimately there is little. To maintain this feeling they assert this superiority so the illusion and, therefore, their control is not lost.

    If you have come that far, then why not come all the way. All of this “knuckle-draggers” nonsense is just another assertion of illogical superiority. The need to believe your intellectual superiority gives a sense of control in the very same fraught situation and for the precisely same reason. The need to be ‘more enlightened than’ others maintains the illusion of this control.

    Come the rest of the way. There either is a God or there is not. You are either quite intelligent or you are not so much. LIVE.

    • cripsyduck Says:

      I hear you, TD.

      And there is only one way in which I actually am superior. I am willing to let them live as they are. (for now) They are not willing to let others live as they are.

      For instance. In India, the Hindus embrace western religion. “You’re a Christian? Great!” That’s how they feel. Because Hinduism encompasses all spiritual thought. Jesus is just another of God’s manifestations. Like Krishna, or Rama. Or Moses. Or Mohamed.

      Now, Hindu orthodoxy has its share of serious problems (caste system anyone?) as do I, but in acceptance, the Vedic pantheon beats the Biblical one hands down. (Plus, it’s chocked full of all kinds of interesting info about the power of meditation – good stuff.)

      So anti-choicers can sit down and shut up. Or, better yet, how about focusing on the real injustices of this world – poverty, famine, disease, warfare?

      • Because it’s harder for them to make a buck taking up those causes. In the end, it’s all about money and power for these guys. As it is with everyone who goes forth in the name of their God.

  7. cripsyduck Says:

    David – wow. Do you have any idea how crazy you sound? Totally batsquat nuts. I mean… wow. You ever see Star Wars? You might as well be preaching the Force to me. I mean, I like the sound of it, but…. I know it’s a WORK OF FICTION. Even if parts of it are true.

    Seriously. Spirituality is an internal affair. It’s between you and THE ALMIGHTY. (And I mean the REAL ALMIGHTY, not your Old Testament voodoo retranslated jive turkey stuff.) You should keep it inside. Make it real. You don’t have to tell anyone. If it’s real, WE’LL KNOW.

    And you won’t have to hand me this perfect savior, born in sin, going to heaven/hell, constant good/evil B.S.

    I don’t believe in any of that stuff because it just AIN’T TRUE. It’s just useful to priests trying to keep you in line.

    But thanks for the blessing. Have a nice day.

  8. At this risk or preaching to the choir (or at least Cripsy’s choir), I offer up here the text of my letter I submitted to the Washington Post regarding this event. It’s being considered for publication in next Sunday’s edition. Here goes:

    Regarding “Abortion Provider Shot Dead in Church,” (June 1st): I’ll never cease to be amazed by the utter hypocrisy of the anti-abortion activists. They value and respect human life so much that they are willing to gun down medical professionals who are quietly going about their business? Is it a Christian tenet that violent confrontation is excusable when the targeted party refuses to bend to the will of that faction?

    I look forward to the day when a dialogue is struck about what is really going on in the minds of anti-abortionists. Seems to me that the anti-abortionists are feeding off of their own ignorance, fear and lack of control: Ignorance regarding over-population and the many societal ills that can result from a child being born unwanted; a fear of the unknown, of people who think differently from them; lack of control over their surroundings which makes the ignorant more fearful and anxious and therefore want to latch onto a cause, something, anything, to give them some semblance of control over their environment and soothe them like a balm.

    There’s a fine line between domestic terrorism and righteousness.

    • cripsyduck Says:

      Yeah, the righteous are forgiving, humble, open-minded, empathic, place others before themselves (all others), know the great wisdom of the ages contains only a small fragment of WHOLE TRUTH, and the other guys…. kill stuff to scare the shit out of people.

      • FYI, this letter has been published in today’s Post, instead of Sunday. And it’s had the crap edited out of it. Whatever. Par for the course…

        Horn tootingly,
        A.

  9. Since you’ve studied the religion you must know the Vedas teach that every life is sacred including the unborn, marking the brunaghni (translates to something like ‘fetus slayer’) as among the greatest of sinners. Judaism and Islam teach the same, although many leaders of each of these religions currently make exceptions in the case of critical risk to the mother’s life or in some cases rape, as do many contemporary Christian leaders.

    I must confess your view on abortion isn’t terribly interesting to me either way but there is something that is.

    My interest is this: Why so much anger and hate so often specifically toward Christianity and Christian fundamentalists? I live in the overwhelmingly Christian United States so it could be that it is in this context the issue is most often in the news. However, in my experience with those around me, the vast majority of people so rabidly and hatefully against Christianity were children raised in Christian families – remarkably often the more fundamentalist branches.

    Again, I live in nation largely made of Christian believers so maybe that is much of it, yet it is striking to me that how consistently their anger at the religion is intertwined with their anger at their upbringing in general at the mercy of their parents and their parents beliefs. The point in fact, a really disproportionate percentage of these people in my personal experience are the children of clergy. Is that the case here?

    • cripsyduck Says:

      Not even close. My anger is over religious hypocrisy. People who proclaim to know something about absolute truth and then defy even the half-truths they espouse.

      It’s not just Christians, it’s fundamentalists, authoritarians, the blind leading the stupid. And it’s not just anger. It’s shame, it’s horror, it’s fear and it’s disgust.

  10. Why should the hypocrisy of the religious specifically bother you to this level of anger? There is hypocrisy among every religion, among every class, among every country, among every race, among both sexes, among both the authoritarian and those subject to them, and both the smart and stupid.

    If it’s too personal, fine, but this is what fascinates me.

    • You’re right. Why should anyone be angry at hypocrisy when it’s widespread? You’re absolutely right. Let’s all just lay down like good little doormats and accept that hypocrisy is rampant and let’s just take what’s coming to us like the anesthized sheep we are supposed to be (ie: Christians),

  11. cripsyduck Says:

    Hey, I’m not angry enough to kill, if that’s what you’re wondering. That goes against my personal idea of right and wrong. But I think you’ll find there’s plenty to get upset over out there. For instance, one of the only people in the country who’ll perform an abortion for your incest-victim daughter after she starts to show at six months and admits Uncle Whoever put his thingy in her, was just shot AT CHURCH by a man who thought he was doing it FOR JESUS. I’m also notoriously rabid about greedy corporatists, chickenhawk warmongers, Republicans and often Democrats as well. And you’re kinda starting to piss me off, too.

    That’s just me…

  12. Yes, likely too personal

  13. Stevsie Says:

    TD, I think I like you. I too, would like to dissect Cripsy’s deep seeded psychological issues, but no time for that now. It’s the anti-women’s-right’s, “pro-lifer’s” (what a joke) that have blatantly encouraged hatred and violence towards Tiller and others like him – that believe he deserved to be killed – that are now jumping to ensure us that this act of violence is not their fault. Good christians indeed. Until people can learn to think for themselves, rather than believing everything they are told, these fanatics will continue to incite terrorism. Religion as we know it is brain washing, not so bad really, as long as it doesn’t KILL people.

  14. barndoor cowlegs Says:

    My Loving God Hates Your Guts!
    (or something along those lines)

    I always wonder what it must be like for a real pastor to know that the majority of his parishioners don’t know the theology behind that particular denomination, which I suspect is a driving force behind the nut-job “Christians”.
    And then there are the evangelicals, who are just making it up as they go along, there is no theology there, only self-righteousness- these two things lead to murder and hatred.

    Why can’t so called fundamentalists stick to the real fundamentals? The main point of Jesus’s existence was to end the “vengeful god” mentality of the Old Testament, not to give it merit.

    The sad part, of course, is that this murder happened, not the first, won’t be the last. I’ll bet we see more in the coming years. This type of violence has had an effect, used to be that many doctors would perform abortions along with their other duties, now no one wants to risk having their offices bombed, or being shot on more than one occasion. That’s why people like Tiller are so important, the guy was a doctor for Christ’s sake! He was doing his best to do his job, and, GASP, he had morals, probably thought through his ethics a lot longer than the asshole who shot him, or the demagogues who promote hate, raise the level of rhetoric, and then pretend to denounce the person they encouraged to murder someone.

    How can “David” say that pro-lifers don’t support this act? – they created it, “abortion is murder” = “it’s okay to murder the abortionists”

    The bottom line is that this was a violent attack on women’s rights and a continuation of Christianity’s history of suppressing and controlling women. David, of all people, should be the loudest voice in this blog criticizing and pointing out the hypocricy, where is his outrage? We are easily outraged, to be expected, but why not the supposed believer who claims that pro-lifers aren’t the same thing as the killer? Instead he is apologizing for a murderer.

    • You’re right barndoor. I am outraged and I do condemn the actions that killed the man. It’s not our place to judge him, that’s God’s job. It’s one thing to be anti-murder, but you should be against murder 100%, not 99%, or only when it suits you.

      I am also outraged that you people think because one person does something that, the whole of Christianity somehow approves. NOT ON YOUR LIFE. We can never force our will, our faith or our morals on others. Though we are certainly free to point out how and why someone is wrong. We can never condemn someone for doing some evil act. We can certainly call an evil evil. But it’s the act, not the person. Even Judas was not an evil person, what he did was.

      Please, do not paint us all with this brush. It is not ok to murder anybody. Where did I apologize for the murderer? I don’t even know his name, or anything about him/her. I know more about the victim than the murderer, and I don’t even want to know about him. What he did is wrong.

      • barndoor cowlegs Says:

        the very vocal, “christian” anti-choice movement is responsible, you don’t see more mainstream protestant denominations screaming, waving signs that read “abortion is murder”, blocking clinics etc., because they are much more aware that it is not their place to condemn and to judge, it is Christ’s or God’s. The ignorant pissed off anti-choice crowd raises the level of rhetoric to a point where extremists take action. To truly condemn these acts, David, TAKE ACTION- tell your fellow zealots that it is not your place to hold others in judgement, to decide on a person by person basis what is evil or not. To truly condemn the act tell your believer friends to stand up and say enough is enough. Anything less is an apology, as in- abortion is evil so the murder was wrong but understandable- and that is what you are saying.

        We can all go on debating theology, or atheism, or whatever, but I think that is a different topic, it is the high level of rhetoric from the anti-choice, anti-woman, anti-sex crowd that is causing violence. The same can be said for the immigration rhetoric, and the gay-marriage debate- the more hysterical people become, the more hate crimes are committed. In the case of anti-choice and gay marriage, saying that god is the basis for your hatred gives the crazies more ammo for their hysteria and causes murder.

  15. there’s a lot of indiscriminate club swinging around here – lots of baby seals splattered everywhere for no reason. It seems that everyone actually agrees that this murder was as wrong as every other murder. It also seems that we can all agree that the murderer was deranged. If you are crazy, it is not the fault of Jodie foster, allah, jesus, shiva, or captain kangaroo what you do in their name. nor does it follow that it is the fault of other devotees of Captain kangaroo, mr. rogers, etc. anyone who worked with this nut or encouraged him, sure, but not just anyone who prays to the same manifestation of the Godhead.

  16. cripsyduck Says:

    True ’nuff. But if your church promotes the notion that abortion is MURDER, and tells people that sometimes they need to go beyond the law, that murder can be justified because you’re murdering a murderer, then well,… F. You and all your slimy brainwashed ilk.

    This is gonna get worse, and it’s gonna get worse because whenever the sanctimonious fraud religious righties lose control of the throne, they get desperate and they get violent. Why? Because they’re ignorant and unwilling to learn. Because they refuse to understand the REALITY of WOMEN’S HEALTH. Because their pastors tell them that secularism – the absolute foundation of American democracy – is the root of all “evil.” (Worse yet, they believe in “EVIL” – that some great force of negativity is outside of themselves, needing to be conquered.) These people need to be reformed and reintegrated.

  17. ” But if your church promotes the notion that abortion is MURDER, and tells people that sometimes they need to go beyond the law, that murder can be justified because you’re murdering a murderer, then well,… F. You and all your slimy brainwashed ilk.”

    What Church ever said that. Show documentation please? And stop dumping all religions together. Even Christian religions-there are about 40,000 different Christian religions.

    It’s not a matter of women’s health. If it was, I wouldn’t be fighting it. It’s about baby’s being inconvenient because a woman decides to have sex unprotected during her fertile time, and she doesn’t want to have to take care of a little rugrat for the rest of her life.

    Again, be specific who you’re disparaging because I don’t know any Catholic pastor saying secularism is evil. Materialism and hedonism, yes, absolutely evil for their own pursuit. Evil is living outside of God’s loving embrace.

    • barndoor cowlegs Says:

      Your assertion that abortion is not a matter of women’s health really shows your ignorance. So too does your belief that abortion is about inconvenience and unprotected sex. I was at first looking to see if this conversation might take a more learned approach to religion, but this is truly ridiculous. My guess is that you are a middle-class white, priveledged person who has experienced very little of the world, and understands very little of the specifics of the abortion discussion.
      I, personally, don’t feel that abortion is something I would ask of any woman, and fortunately, haven’t had to be put in that position. As a male, I CERTAINLY won’t ask a woman to not have a choice in the matter, and neither should anyone else.
      … and how the hell do you determine what living inside or outside of god’s loving embrace is? This is just mumbo jumbo, a completely meaningless assertion. If you knew any christian theology, you would know that making that determination is entirely left to human’s to try to figure out for themselves based on their best guess of how to commune with God, making the wrong choice does not make anyone evil! Nor does making the wrong guess about a fellow human being make that person more or less evil.
      I generally have a weakness to tolerate other people’s religious ideas, but only when they know what they are talking about, and shy away from blanket assertions that they have memorized, but no understanding of the reasoning behind the ideas.
      You want someone to apologize for this murder, find a smarter christian, maybe a theologian or a real pastor or something, and see what they say.

      • Barndoor, 90% of abortions are not done for a woman’s health, they are done for convenience of the woman. Be real. Why? Because of having sex, unprotected. There’s no other way to conceive, besides IVF.

        We determine what is God’s loving embrace because he told us. He told us that we should not murder. If you had any idea of Catholic theology, you would know that we’ve been teaching the same thing for 2000 years. There is no question about right or wrong here.

        I never said the person was evil, just the opposite. It’s the act that’s evil. Even Judas wasn’t evil, what he did in betraying Jesus was. It’s the act that’s evil. The human performs the act, makes the decision. God creates, it’s really not for us to destroy.

        I have been SAYING that the murder of Dr. Tiller was wrong. What I have been FIGHTING is the tendency of lefties to paint us all with a broad brush. I’m a Catholic, and all murder is wrong-inside and outside the womb. Some fundamentalists might be clapping for the murderer, but most main-line Christians aren’t.

        What I really want to know is this…Why is it so wrong for people to stand outside the clinic and quietly try to dissuade women from doing something wrong with the gift inside them? In 90% of the cases, that’s just what’s happening. Sure, the violent and radical get all the press, but that’s because people praying outside a clinic isn’t sexy enough for them.

  18. cripsyduck Says:

    You yourself implied that abortion is murder when you said you were anti-murder. We’re all anti-murder. But abortion and murder are not the same thing.

    And yes, it IS about women’s health. The reason that Roe V. Wade stands is that it was determined that a woman has a right to a SAFE abortion should she require it. And she gets to be the arbiter of whether or not she needs it.

    Roe v. Wade doesn’t state that the people have a right to kill babies, it states that women get to determine if they are going to carry fetuses to full term. Not the church. Not the Ancient Guide to Horseshit and Superstition. Not you, not me, not anyone but the mother herself.

    • Abortion about women’s health? In the words of “Jane Roe” : “Back in 1973 I was a very confused twenty-one year old with one child and facing an unplanned pregnancy. At the time I fought to obtain a legal abortion, but truth be told, I have three daughters and never had an abortion.”

      Women’s health, huh? Sounds like unwanted child to me. At any rate, God knows right and wrong, and will judge you and me when the time comes.

      “We’er all anti-murder…you cannot be anti-murder and pro-abortion. The only difference is the location.

      The cells inside a mother’s womb are not a potential child, they are a child with potential.

  19. barndoor cowlegs Says:

    more empty slogans dude, maybe that plays well with the evangelical crowd, but you are trying to debate a couple of atheists, some true believers, and a few agnostics, you are gonna have to do better than that.
    For now you are still just apologizing for a murderer, and now condemning us on this blog for being upset by it.
    I believe your original intent was to say that true Christians can have their message distorted by a few zealots. I think that was also part of Cripsy’s original piece, why not just agree and say yeah- I’m sorry for all the terrible things done in the name of Christ, or because the “word of God” says so, and take some action? Wouldn’t the truly Christian thing to do be saying, okay, I will now do everything in my power to make sure this doesn’t happen again, which is to not participate in hysterical ill informed rants about abortion under the pretense that it is God’s will?

  20. I will take a stab at this.

    (1st. disclosure–I was baptized in the Catholic Church as a baby. I was raised in the Church of the Nazarene until age 14. We attended a bunch of new age whacko-ish different churches in the late 1970’s. I spent two years living in Teheran Iran 1975-1977. As an adult I choose to call myself an Agnostic. You bet I have doubts, mostly due to church politics and hypocrisy.)

    I think we all can find common ground supporting life and not killing.

    I am not sure if a spermed ovum is a living being. I tend to think not, but
    here is an interesting perspective:

    http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2009/05/06/letters/more/aletter14.txt

    As a man, I don’t know if I have a dog in this fight. The way I see the issue is this. A spermed ovum cannot survive separate of the mother’s womb. I would see it as more of an extension of the mother’s personhood until the point where the spermed ovum has the ability to live and breath outside the womb. Until that point, it is simply a part of the woman’s body and not much different than removing a growth. Her body-her choice.

    I do not advocate abortion as a form of birth control.

    I work with lots of young adults who were born and found their parents did not want them, or did not have the resources or skills to care for them. They are shuffled between foster care families and institutions until age 18. Then, in most instances, they are deemed “Adults” by the State and cut loose with very marginal life skills and little hope of any real chance of a good quality of life. They often hook up with another damaged young adult–and oops they did it again! –And the cycle starts over again.

    I wish the hateful Christian-right to lifers would spend a little more time championing education, and social supports– Ones that work outside of the “traditional” good Christian family model.

    Finally=–not all unwanted pregnancies are due to promiscuous sex–there are health, crime, and accidental reasons one might find their adult person-hood of more value than the spurmed ovum they carry….

  21. where are all the Christians protesting outside of recruiting offices and outside of military posts? this selective “just pointing out that you are wrong” is not christian. “while you point out the splinter in your neighbors eye you miss the log in yours.” Jesus hung out with prostitutes and thieves and broke bread with them. the only time he got physically angry was at the money lenders and white collar scum using a religious site to make money. ” judge not lest ye be judged.”
    If you merely “point out that someone is sinning” you are judging. the old testament is junk. the 10 commandments are junk. the rule is “love God with all your heart, soul, and strength and love everyone else as yourself. so love the murdered doctor, love the women who used his services, and love the guy who shot him – without judgment. If you really want to influence someone, influence yourself: leave all your earthly possessions behind and follow this rule.

    • Why should we stand outside recruiting offices or military posts? War and military are necessary sometimes. Just because he ate with them doesn’t mean he didn’t note that what they did was wrong, and say so. “Go and sin no more” to the woman caught in adultery. It is a sin not to tell someone when they’re wrong, as Samuel did with David when he fornicated with Bathsheba and had her husband killed. We separate the sin from the sinner, and are supposed to love even the worst sinner, we are ALL sinners, yes, even me. Some are called to do just that, and do. They’re called Catholic priests, religious and nuns. Not all are required to do this, but to be unattached to the possessions we have.

  22. barndoor cowlegs Says:

    so why does this only apply to protesting military recruitment and not abortion providers?
    your logic is skewed, could one not say that abortion is necessary sometimes? Certainly if war is, then abortion is- how many deaths have occurred due to US militarism compared to abortion?
    Or the other way around- if you oppose murder of the unborn so much that blocking clinics is appropriate, how about the murder of the living and blocking recruitment centers?
    What about innocents and collateral damage? Suffering from lack of resources, starvation….

    Speaking of war and religion, the crusades and the inquisition? how does that play into your 2000 years of Catholic teaching against murder? (your words not mine)

  23. Girlfriend Says:

    “I am also outraged that you people think because one person does something that, the whole of Christianity somehow approves.” — Dave, you have a lot of nerve. I am outraged that YOU have decided that all abortions are due to lazy women wanting to get out of responsibility.
    “It’s about baby’s being inconvenient because a woman decides to have sex unprotected during her fertile time, and she doesn’t want to have to take care of a little rugrat for the rest of her life.”
    How dare you. You are a closed-minded, sexist man. You mock real people by implying that this is not a serious and difficult decision for a woman and her family to make.

    “during her fertile time” — I vote that Dave no longer be allowed to have sex during HIS “fertile time.”

    Anyone who is against a women’s right to choose had damn well be adopting some babies right now. Dave how many babies that couldn’t be cared for by their parents have you welcomed into your life recently?

  24. cripsyduck Says:

    David, you’re a champ, and I thank you for coming back to this blog to argue your beliefs. I know we’re being tough on you here, but I’m sure everyone appreciates your chiming in.

    To your question of humiliating pregnant women seeking abortions – are you sure this is confusing? Is your empathy so impaired you can’t see what’s wrong with shaking someone down with horrible guilt when they are at their most vulnerable? Really? I would think a compassionate savior like Christ would help you understand the horror of a zealot hassling you at a time of crisis.

    HE did that for me. ( thanks, jesus! )

  25. uh, Dave, if you are going to start saying that thou shalt not kill only applies in certain instances and that its ok in war then you are no christian. you are an old testament savage with a jesus tattoo. God can say go and sin no more, not you. it is not a sin to not tell someone when they are wrong – it is a sin to think that you must tell everyone when they are wrong – the sin of pride. the only person you get to tell is yourself. and nice ratianalization that only priests have to follow all the teachings of christ and the the rest of us can go on our merry way and not be “attached.” you may be a champ but you’re a shallow thinker and no christian. wake up and be re-born again buddy.

  26. Anyone who posts such comments as David’s on a liberal blog is doing so to be inciteful (not too be confused with “insightful.”) Let’s not throw logs on his fire…

  27. Well, let me spell it out. Where does it say anywhere in Christianity that having an army and fighting wars for just causes is wrong? If you believe that a war is unjust or unnecessary, so be it, go and protest. And many Christians do, in every war. There is room for disagreement. Barndoor, no, murder is never necessary. If you’re talking about cases where the mother and child are both at risk, while medicine calls that an abortion, it’s not what we are fighting. To answer your question, there have been 50 million abortions in this country. More abortion deaths than all the deaths of WWI, WWII and Korea. Put it in perspecive. More abortions in an hour than the total number of war casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    What about the Crusades and Inquisition? I want to find out how much you really know about those two periods…

    Girlfriend, abortion is a procedure of convenience. If we could stop all those, most of us would be happy. Let’s face it, most unwanted pregnancies are caused because some form of birth control was either not used or failed. So abortion becomes the defacto oops birth control. I’m not denying how serious a decision it is to make, I’m suggesting that it could have been much easier to make when the choice was to give in to pleasure (or not) at the time of conception. There’s a problem with adoption, Girlfriend, in this country. There’s not enough babies available to meet the demand of prospective parents. You have to go outside the country to find children to adopt. And they aren’t coming from Europe either, where the birth rate is making the population unsustainable, except for the Muslim immigration. As for me, I know the value of adoption-I was adopted. And would if there weren’t so many more deserving prospective parents out there. But I’m in the grandchildren stage.

    Cripsyduck-
    It is unchristian to let someone wallow in sin. It is certainly uncharitable to shout them down, but for the most part, that’s not happening. But to invite them to see an alternative, or to see what an abortion really is before they make such a mistake, that’s charity. Many women have abortions because they think there’s no other way. To show them that there is another way, to educate them ahead of time, that’s the goal. Considering the state I’ve seen in women many years after having had an abortion, I think, done lovingly, we’re doing them a favor.
    Regarding harassing people by shouting them down, wasn’t it ok during the Vietnam war to harass those men going into and out of military bases? They were just going to work, weren’t they?

    SH, it doesn’t say “Thou shall not kill.” It says “Thou shall not murder”. There are plenty of righteous wars in the Old Testament. There are cases when war is necessary. World War II was one of them. I’m not a war advocate, in fact am a pacifist, but also a realist. War is, sometimes, necessary. Just as Samuel showed David his error in fathering a child with Bathsheba and then murdering her husband (David repented when he saw his error), it is our responsibility. There are more ways to sin than just by doing the deed.
    1. Counsel: Giving advice or direction to the evil-doer;
    2. Command: Ordering or inducing another to commit sin;
    3. Consent: approving of the sin, before or after its act;
    4. Provocation: Inciting or urging one to commit sin;
    5. Praise or flattery: Inciting or urging one to commit sin by praise;
    6. Concealment: helping one to commit sin by offering to conceal the crime;
    7. Partnership: Sharing the fruits of another’s sin;
    8. Silence: Not speaking out when we should, or not acting to prevent sin when obliged;
    9. Defending evil: Attempting to justify the evil actions of others.

    I don’t know where you got your last part, SH, about only priests, etc…but we are called to love our fellow man. Love, do you know what that means? Love means helping your fellow man get to heaven. Justifying or permitting him to commit sins denies that.

  28. cripsyduck Says:

    OK, waitaminute, David. Love doesn’t have diddly to do with after-life fantasy camp. Love has to do with bettering existence now. You believe in sin. That’s your problem. Many of us feel that going through life in a state of perpetual shame isn’t helping anybody. Many of us find the Christian pantheon distasteful, cruel, snobbish and short-sighted. Self-righteousness does not a better world make.

    Besides, if your all-powerful grandfather in the sky really exists, what makes you think you know what “He” is thinking? (that seems arrogant) Maybe he loves abortions better than bishops. Or, more likely, maybe they’re the same to “Him.”

    Isn’t the Catholic church famously opposed to birth control? To sex education? To anything that might actually help avoid unintentional pregnancies?

    And I’m sorry, hassling women outside clinics is outright cruelty, no more, no less. (You really think they’ve never considered the alternatives to abortion?) You can try to use your prehistoric comic book to justify your twisted brand of gentle terrorism, but I ain’t buying it.

    • Well, there’s a lot of different greek words for love. Which one are you referring to? I’m talking about agape-self-sacrificing love. You’re wrong about perpetual shame. There’s nothing shameful about sinning. The point is to know that you’ve made a mistake, be sorry for it, resolve to try not to do it again, and move on. That’s real cruel, isn’t it?

      We know what he thinks because he told us. And he has only one way-truth. Since truth is absolute, he can never change, and has told us what he thinks.

      The Church is against birth control, so what? Sex education, no, we aren’t against that. And we do provide ways to avoid unintentional pregnancies. It’s called abstinence. DON”T HAVE SEX AND YOU WON’T HAVE A PREGNANCY.

      I’ve already agreed-hassling someone outside the clinic is wrong. Trying to explain her options in real terms isn’t. Shaking fingers and fists at women isn’t the right way, for sure. Leading them down a better road is, and helping them come to that conclusion in their hearts is, too.

  29. It’s the height of arrogance to proclaim your way of living is the right way. That’s why religion is wrong and has nothing to do with spirituality, because truly spiritual people don’t feel so insecure that they have to rub their belief system in other’s faces.

    • I’m not claiming my way is the right way. I’m claiming that God’s way is. Whether you acknowledge it or not, there is a supreme being who makes himself known to us, and tells us how to live in a pleasing way for him. You should thank him that he gave you the freedom to believe in him or not. He loves you that much. OTherwise, you’d just be his slave.

  30. The concept of god is your own projection. It’s a fantasy. And I happen to think it’s ok to engage in fantasy. Problem here is that you feel the need to say “God loves you.” The very fact that you need to say this to someone, especially knowing that you’re probably talking to an unbeliever, means you’re insecure about your belief system and are merely looking for validation. People who are secure and centered in their beliefs don’t even have to talk about it.

  31. Angel,
    No, it’s not. Not a projection, not a fantasy. You will find out. But God loves us all equally, whether you believe in him or not. Your actions in not believing will determine where you spend eternity.

  32. You make me laugh David.
    Lucky for you that I don’t need to foist my agnosticism down your throat since I’m perfectly centered in my non-believery-ness!
    BTW, god doesn’t love you.

  33. well, dang, angel, i’m so glad i could entertain yew. ya no, they’uns says that u kin lead a hors to water but guess what? u caint makem drink.

  34. NOW you’re making sense!!!

  35. What anoys me is that we all have the right to or beleifs, which I think we’d all agree is correct. But this compition of whos right is the problem with the human specis and the cause of all strife world wide. It doesn’t seem like anyone, even here, is willing to let anyone have a contray view with out telling them how wrong headed they are. If you want to progress as a society you have to allow peole to believe and practice what ever belief they have. You ain’t gonna get there calling people knuckle draggers or sinners. I hate and love all of you equally.

  36. cripsyduck Says:

    I’m sorry, but if you believe the Great Pumpkin’s gonna take you to the Dairy Queen in the sky when you die and you use that as the basis of your law rather than the actual law, then your knuckles are pretty scuffed up from dragging them around. You can believe in the Force or the great eternal ice cream shop above, but if you impose that on others and ignore reality, I don’t care how hallowed your ancient system is, how tall your pontiff’s miter, you’re full of poo.

    Also, if you don’t know how to spell check, you’re pretty silly, too.

    • Sorry about the early mornin’ “submit” without the spell check. I fully agree that twisting law to fit a personal belief system is ignorant. I was commenting on the aspect of the discussion relating to spiritual belief only not the initial topic. Maybe if I correct the spelling the point would come through better.
      “What annoys me is that we all have the right to or beliefs, which I think we’d all agree is correct. But this competition of who’s right is the problem with the human species and the cause of all strife world wide. It doesn’t seem like anyone, even here, is willing to let anyone have a contrary view with out telling them how wrong headed they are. If you want to progress as a society you have to allow people to believe and practice what ever belief they have. You ain’t gonna get there calling people knuckle draggers or sinners. I hate and love all of you equally.”

  37. Dave has already acknowledged that he defines christian doctrine however it suits him in the moment and that while he can be led to water, he will not drink. So he has entertainment value, but as an interesting partner in a philosophical conversation he ranks with a 7 year old. we know that the hypnotized never lie, but they are pretty boring to talk to after the initial chuckles are past.

  38. While we snicker and roll our eyes at David’s comments, fact is, that he’s representative of an enormous block of people who think just like him, many of whom are my relatives! So while it’d be nice to casually dismiss him and what a lot of us here perceive as his ignorance and naivete, we must remember that his kind outnumber us! And since I have so much practice dealing with his types, I’ve found that these kind of hyper-evangelical types, are really deep down just angry, frightened people who need lots of hugs and validation.
    So David, from this moment forward, consider yourself validated! Live long and prosper, my son.

  39. SH, the name is David, not Dave. Defining Christian doctrine is above my paygrade-that comes from the Church Jesus created 2000 years ago. I’ve been led to the water and have drunk. I’m not participating in a philosophical argument. My argument is theological.

    Angel, the vast majority of that block, close to a billion strong. You can casually dismiss all you like, it doesn’t change the truth. And what you dismiss as naivete and ignorance is far from that. Your characterization of me as evangelical is far off the mark, as is your assertion that I’m angry or frightened. And I don’t need validation, especially from you and your friends here, though hugs are nice when they’re genuine.

    And gladly, I’m not your son. What I am is a voice for the voiceless.

  40. Wow, well ok. I can’t argue with someone who is completely off their trolley!

  41. If you guys can stand anymore talk on this subject, people are debating my letter to the editor on the Post’s website. Here’s the link if you want to join in the fun:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/03/AR2009060303489.html

    I stopped reading after the comment about the “sick minded lady.” That was about all I could stand!

  42. cripsyduck Says:

    teacher’s pet

  43. Dave, your name doesn’t matter. As to the topic, you say that its thou shalt not murder, not thou shalt not kill, and then you say you are not defining doctrine? (not to mention that the book you are reading was written generations after the events and translated at least twice before you could understand it, well, read it anyway.) you have drunk the kool aid all right, but not the water of life big boy. you are like the nice young man in the parable who knows all the rules but still has to leave hanging his head when the Christ tells him to give up all he has if he’s not a poser(at least his answer – silent resignation – wasn’t as lame as yours ” er, some are called to it, um, er, not , me er, I’m just here to tell others that they are sinning, er, ehem…). Dude, you appear to be a poster child for the hypocrisy and self contentedness that is undermining the message Christ sought to bring to humanity. the messenger (you) is killing the message. if you are serious about being a Christian, work on yourself. try reading the new testament not books about the new testament. if you must tell people what to do, try suggesting they read the gospels and leave it at that. I’m pretty sure God can take it from there.

    • sh
      When you point the finger at someone, remember that you have four pointed back at yourself.

      I serve God and Jesus the way he asks me. You have no idea what my experience is, what I’ve done, or how I came to be here. So before you go wagging your finger in people’s face, examine yourself and, if you find yourself to be sinless, go ahead and cast the first stone.

      God loves all people equally, from the most saintly to the most evil. He wants all of them to come to his loving embrace. He does not love their sin. And he expects those around the sinner to help that sinner out of those sins, if possible. If you don’t try, you’re not doing your part.

      Love the sinner, but don’t stand still for a minute while they’re in sin, but lovingly help them out of it.

      • cripsyduck Says:

        Still don’t buy a syllable of it. I believe you THINK you’re helping others you call “sinners,” but you’re really on an ego trip for the church. I applaud your desire to be helpful, but I hiss at the doctrinaire superiority complex that inevitably goes along with it.

  44. Buy it or don’t.

  45. I’m really enjoying eavesdropping on the two of you sparring. Brings to mind the final battle scene between Luke Skywalker & Darth Vader.

  46. bonsuelo Says:

    Where is Goliath when you need him.

  47. Anonymous Says:

    how many people per day do you tell that they are sinning? just curious….because I suspect you are so full of shit that your eyeballs are brown. unless you tell every person you see sinning that they are sinning and “lovingly help them out of it,” you are a hypocrite. why are you so selective as to pick only pregnant women? why don’t you go down to fraternity row at night and tell people how they should change their sinful ways? why don’t you do the bar circuit? why don’t you go down to the projects at night and tell people down there how they should change their actions and how your input is only”compassion” because they so desperately need your advice? and I’m not pointing any fingers at you that I don’t point at myself, davey, so that works out fine for me.

    by the way, what else do you have in common with hitler and charles manson besides that you”serve god and jesus the way he (sic) asks [you]?” sheesh.

    • How many per day? That’s not necessary. We’re all sinners. And what makes you think I don’t go some of the places you’ve mentioned. By the way, most abortion clinics are in inner city neighborhoods. The point to reach people is before, not in the middle. After is too late.

      You know, today’s Gospel is a good answer to your last question: Jesus said to his disciples:
      “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
      will enter the Kingdom of heaven,
      but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
      Many will say to me on that day,
      ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?
      Did we not drive out demons in your name?
      Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
      Then I will declare to them solemnly,
      ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

      “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them
      will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.

      The rain fell, the floods came,
      and the winds blew and buffeted the house.
      But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
      And everyone who listens to these words of mine
      but does not act on them
      will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
      The rain fell, the floods came,
      and the winds blew and buffeted the house.
      And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”

      When Jesus finished these words,
      the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
      for he taught them as one having authority,
      and not as their scribes.

      • cripsyduck Says:

        And then they all went out and shot at gynecologists so as better to harass innocent women.

        Right?

  48. whoops, forgot to initial my last post…

  49. Kris Rikken Says:

    When I hear things like “the Church that Jesus created 2000 years ago” I just remember the parable of the sower and figure some seeds got wedged in a little crack somewhere. I was not aware that Jesus created a church; I was under the impression that the main event in the evolution, if you will, of a “Church” was Paul’s vision on the road to Damascus many years later from there it is a direct line to the televangelists of today.. But I guess from some vantage point it might seem that indeed Jesus created a church.

  50. Well dave, I am stunned by your willingness to admit that you are playing at “driving out demons in his name” and that you will be rejected as an “evildoer” eventually. I had assumed that you were blinded by your own bs, but here you show the possibility of evolution. recognition is the first step. well done.

  51. iiIii

  52. The summation puts all our approaches to our various different beliefs, ideologies, and notions in context, doesn’t it? Are any of us willing to edit or revise our rants posted within this realm after watching this expose of human emotion and its effect on what we are willing to believe and how we express those beliefs, especially when challenged with differing beliefs, ideologies, or notions? Is not the point of the video that we need to stop fearing each other and come up with ideas that all, even those who would dispute the truth of what the video explained so eloquently, can agree to? Or is ok for some to be hostile to others, as long as the ones catching the shit are conservative in the politics, have spent 30 years building a great big multinational corporation that provides innovative products that everybody seems to be buying, or the big successful store that sells the things that everybody seems to want to buy based on the fuck crowd in there 24-7, or the misguided masses who are sincerely honest in their belief in the Devine. Great video, I’ll be interested in seeing if anyone changes their mindset after watching that. A Newcastle at the Dinner sez nope.

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